I was for several years fortunate to have a pastor with whom I agreed, uncannily, on almost everything, including all of the stuff he believed-but-wouldn’t-preach-about. What disagreements I had with him were more often about why he wouldn’t preach those things (and even that was a reason to love him). I do wonder whether I’ll ever meet with such a like-minded pastor again—especially considering Jeremy’s troubles, but I’ll let him speak to that.

What others said, however, in the course of classes was a problem to me, and I don’t think I handled them very well. I remember classes that were so contentious that I’d be angry about it hours afterwards. This usually happened when I’d be fed a wall of proverbs about how necessary it is to teach men to fish and to neglect benevolence and community corporeal outreach. Kathy notices other things, such as that when some men teach, they only ask men to read, and she’s been livid afterwards—but that’s a core teaching in my church, so it’s not quite relevant here. Anyway, my own typical response (unless asked directly) is neither to agree nor disagree and to leave well enough alone because of the situation I am in. Usually that situation is just prior to or just after worship. It’s not the time to lock horns. It’s easier for me to let things by, however. I don’t have a daughter I’m trying to raise.

Lately, though, I find I disagree with some things to come from the pulpit, and I don’t know what to do about that.

by greg—Nov 1, 08:18 AM

well, when we came to atlanta, we finally got fed up with the cofc and left. we’d always been frustrated by the rather problematic hermeneutics and the denial of history in most cofc’s…but the real tipping point was the woman’s role/issue (whatever it is). this was made much easier by the fact that the cofc, except a few antis, fled atlanta when the whites left town and we were/are atlanta residents and 45minute commute on sunday’s seems ridiculous, especially when everybody else is driving in from, sometimes up to even, a hour plus away. it was also made easier by the blatant hypocrisy of the preacher, which i won’t go into.

all this to say, we’ve tried the switching/changing churches…and, though we might agree with the pastors where we are now, from only a gender perspective, there are many things which we heartily disagree with…the most consistent being the overt preaching of the gospel of America from the pulpit the self-help, jesus is our personal bell-hop taking care of all our baggage for us kind of gospel.

we’ve done two things:

one: start a bible class where we teach…and, despite being the lone “liberals”, we assiduously avoid politics in our class…of course, at times it comes up…but rarely in terms of national politics, more in terms of the practicalities of our duty to the poor. (which, most though avid proponents of the teach a man to fish philosophy, have given generously of their money when the need arises)

(also, friends of ours, while one was up jersey way attending ptsem for her doctorate, began teaching children’s hour…not for their children they had none, but to avoid the really bad sermons)

two: i’ve written several letters to the pastor. others have also written letters…but they threaten leaving and, in the end leave, and he seems to do little about those. my letter was non-threatening and presented the case in terms of how his sermon’s hurt the cause. he actually listened to my complaints…and i think that there are two reasons…one the presentation of them relied on where we agree and two i am an involved member of the church.

still, we go in cycles of thinking why don’t we just leave.

at the same time, though, and i say this being a white male and not studying this for a living, i think that girls, especially girls who have gender parity modeled in the home, grow up able to see through the platitudes and crap and, more importantly, grow up resisting these ideas (at least my wife is such a case).

that last paragraph actually has nothing to with gender, though it might seem so, and more to do with the perspicacity and resilience of children, and their ability to distinguish between the what is modeled to them in the home and what is told/preached to them.

and maybe the best thing for kids is seeing how their parents engage and interact with people with whom they disagree on fundamental issues but agree with on fundamental issues as well.

in community we rarely about everything.

by hermit x—Nov 1, 08:43 AM

really all of that to say…we’ve tried the leaving part…(and this was done in desperation since we forsaw no mass change in the immediate future in the cofc)

and now we are trying to stick it out, by changing our environment.

and we don’t have any answers…and there are still times when we wonder…do we want to bring up our daughter in such an affluent, self-centered church?

by hermit x—Nov 1, 09:07 AM

as far as what greg said, i don’t think men asking only men to read from the bible is a core teaching at his church, which is why i was so appalled the first time i saw it happen.

i’m an outsider, and i’m not a member of any church (since i left the catholic church when i was 16), so my perspective is kind of complicated and perhaps not so relevent. but when we do have kid(s), this will be even more important to me than it is now.

that jeremy brings up the question of whether to leave or to try to change things from the inside is timely for me, because greg and i have this debate every so often (and did quite recently). i guess the fact that g’s congregation is so small, insular, and conservative makes me doubt that much will ever change there. strangely, my frustration with the non-core things that go on there drive me crazier than they do g. and i should say that at my heyday, i was attending sunday morning service only once a month and perhaps a bit more often for sunday night classes. when the hiring of the new minister got nasty (due to one particular patriarch of the congregation), i decided not to go anymore (except on the rare occaison that g. gave the sermon).

by kathy—Nov 1, 12:55 PM

what interesting comments! i am not sure what—if anything—we will do. the discomfort we feel is not excruciating. rather, it is like a steady reminder that we think differently than the people who are in charge of our church. i don’t think they are bad or that we are good.

i think we are just ground down by all the partisan crap that is constantly and superficially and reflexively being stirred up in the media, online, in conversation, and in church. i actively try my best to avoid discussing that species of crap with anyone really (except for a few people I know well) and wonder if the world would not be better off if most of its population didn’t do the same.

all that to say, long day at the office :)

ps. i appreciate all that each of you says. thanks for taking time to comment.

by chris—Nov 1, 08:32 PM

It helps to teach. Granted, it’s difficult to add yet another class to all the ones you already have. Church education classes don’t take as much preparation, but they’re still demanding in and of themselves. My discomfort was for years not excruciating in part because I had that outlet. It’s been some time now since I volunteered to take a class, and I’m beginning to doubt the wisdom of that time.

Why it helps is simply because you have more say on how any discussion takes shape than otherwise. Where always the goal is to set the class free, there’s always a question as to what direction the class runs.

That said, I’ve been of a few minds about church classes over the years. First, I believe Sunday morning adult classes are barely meant for learning, especially in a small church like mine. The time’s not long enough, and the proximity to worship creates too much of a distraction. It took me a while to understand that adult Christians are not college students whose very m.o. is to attend class and switch gears on the fly. In my experience, adult Bible school on Sunday mornings has very uncertain purposes and unclear reasons for existing. Second goes back to why its difficult: regardless of whether you teach Sundays or mid-week, men and women are rutted deeply when they read scripture. I appreciate you, Jeremy, for attempting to change your environment, but in my experience you’ve signed up to watch evolution. It takes patience and courage. (I realize, however, that I may be speaking out of my own frustrations with cofc hermeneutics.)

by greg—Nov 2, 08:08 AM

true…and i don’t do near the amount of sunday school class prep as i used to…and i don’t do near the amount of normal class prep as i used to…which frustrates me…but tenure isn’t played along the lines of how well you prepare your classes…

i have the advantage that most of the people who attend our class have next to nothing of bible knowledge…they grew up in lukewarm homes in a variety of denominations. the advantage is that they want to know more about the bible and don’t have ready access to the various pat answers that more biblically aware xians have.

but teaching, at least where we attend, is also a lonely proposition.

more on that later.

by hermit x—Nov 2, 08:20 AM

i also appreciate the comments here, esp as I am much less patient with pat Sunday school answers than Chris, who is maybe more used to dealing with them after teaching where he does. complicating matters for me is that the SS teacher is an adjunct in the same dept as me (though a much less politicized adjunct with fewer degrees and much more adherence to the party line at work and in SS), and i don’t want to look like i am trying to one-up her when i ask questions. sorry, i know we are supposed to be talking in general, but the particulars are what make this situation even stickier.

by mary—Nov 2, 12:28 PM

It might be that to speak generally, it is necessary to wallow in particulars a while?

by greg—Nov 2, 12:51 PM

for reasons best left offline, the particulars ought to be left offline as well. but those of you who have ever worked in an academic department of a university can imagine why adjuncts (and the untenured) might be less than candid in personal and professional interactions with others from the department (or friends of others from the department).

by chris—Nov 2, 01:06 PM

tru, tru which is why my disrespecting is going to be left off-line

this is a strange and petty professsion

by hermit x—Nov 2, 01:27 PM

Oh, on that I concur. I intended “particulars” to mean something else, I think…

P.S. (A non sequitur grouse:) I hate internet explorer.

by greg—Nov 2, 01:41 PM